tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2752793986869193186.post7961528255524685428..comments2022-12-12T10:49:47.419-05:00Comments on Patient Modesty & Privacy <center>Concerns</center>: Nursing Violations of Patient Privacy by Doug Capra & Joel ShermanJoel Sherman MDhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15302609163683972129noreply@blogger.comBlogger32125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2752793986869193186.post-3581643912442133982013-03-15T16:02:41.541-04:002013-03-15T16:02:41.541-04:00P.S. here is the main age for the Wayback Machine...P.S. here is the main age for the Wayback Machine:<br /><br />http://archive.org/web/web.php<br /><br />It is handy for when authors have edited/protected/deleted a post or comment after it's had attention called to it. It is a lasting record, with "snapshots" of each web page taken on varying dates.<br /><br />It is very very difficult to REALLY delete anything once it's been posted on the Internet.interested observernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2752793986869193186.post-67149629680332790312013-03-15T15:59:32.003-04:002013-03-15T15:59:32.003-04:00Just to let you know, the archive of that "Ni...Just to let you know, the archive of that "Nine Things..." post and comments can still be viewed via the "Wayback Machine".<br /><br />Link here:<br /><br />http://web.archive.org/web/20111125125403/http://allnurses.com/nursing-blogs/nine-things-nurses-618771.htmlinterested observernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2752793986869193186.post-18088811285513236842012-12-09T06:11:10.646-05:002012-12-09T06:11:10.646-05:00As people have pointed out, this is clearly a prob...As people have pointed out, this is clearly a problem chiefly with female staff: I have yet to hear of similarly numerous parallel cases wherein the gender is switched --- i.e. male nurses or doctors telling each other over coffee that it's worth checking out a particular woman's exceptionally large/small/ugly vagina, and posting on the Internet what a laugh such things are. Is there any doubt that were this put on a blog, the feminists would be marching on Washington in armies?! <br /><br />And I think that it is the attitude towards sex and men promoted and fostered by contemporary feminists which is in large part to blame --- in times past, a woman would have been utterly ashamed even to <i>hear</i> such talk about a man's genitalia, let alone to engage in it herself. However, today we live in a post-sexual-revolution society wherein women are far, far, more promiscuous and discuss men's genitalia freely amongst themselves without shame or thought as to how this might humiliate the men of which they speak (indeed, women appear to be enjoying the power to humiliate men without censure in this way). If this is news to you, simply go and buy a sheaf of glossy women's magazines or eavesdrop on a few hen-parties and you'll get a good picture of what I'm talking about. Nurses (and women in other professions) are simply a part of this wider and increasingly acceptable misandristic culture --- if one understands the culture, it should come as no surprise to hear the stories on this site. <br /><br />Seventy years or so ago, a woman behaving and speaking in the way described above would have (quite rightly) been called out as a 'slut' (or whatever the term would have been in those days) --- just as a man who said similarly dirty and disrespectful things about a woman would have been (quite rightly) called a 'creep' (or whatever the term of the day would have been). Such terms were not a comment about anything over which the woman or man had no control --- they were a description of a repellent attitude or behaviour, indulged in openly through free choice. <br /><br />Today, we are horrified at the idea of using such terms, decrying them as 'stigmatising', but they nevertheless served a good purpose (of attaching severe opprobrium to severe breaches of decency and ethics) --- and they served it well. With the de-stigmatisation of bad behaviour, and what one medical writer has termed the "rush from judgement", the only remaining means of curbing this stuff is through "training" (which is so easily ignored --- or simply discarded during a busy period) or, as a desperate last resort, through the blunt instrument of the law. ...Which (as shown above) staff are reluctant to invoke, anyway. <br /><br />Dirty word though it sadly now is, simple, unvarnished stigma would do the job of preserving patient modesty (and standards of decency and ethics in general) very efficiently. ...As once it did.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2752793986869193186.post-63835423068697418322012-05-26T04:23:15.242-04:002012-05-26T04:23:15.242-04:00This is sickening. More people NEED to know how th...This is sickening. More people NEED to know how they're treated while they are unconscious.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2752793986869193186.post-74768114271724819522012-02-13T19:51:19.215-05:002012-02-13T19:51:19.215-05:00I agree, Joel. But I do have to give allnurses cre...I agree, Joel. But I do have to give allnurses credit for bringing these violations out into the open for discussion. Yes, there is a tendency among some nurses to just accept this gossip, even wallow in it. But I get the impression that most are not happy with it, though it also seems that few are willing to speak up and stop or report it.Doug Caprahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15722777627862939708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2752793986869193186.post-45248227214163727992012-02-13T19:01:52.464-05:002012-02-13T19:01:52.464-05:00As noted on Bernstein, another thread on allnurses...As noted on Bernstein, another <a href="http://allnurses.com/operating-room-nursing/etiquette-in-the-673384.html" rel="nofollow">thread on allnurses</a> is covering similar territory. This time it concerns gossiping in the OR about sedated patients during surgery. Only a few nurses are defending it, but some do. One commentator even talked about a non nurse who said she couldn't wait to relate to friends the tale of the small genitalia of a hefty fireman on the table.<br />It is undeniable that these incidents, though never formally sanctioned, do occur. There is little formal medical or nursing instruction about this. One also has to wonder if this occurs with trained and licensed nurses, how much worse it could be with nursing assistants.Joel Sherman MDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15302609163683972129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2752793986869193186.post-77390535531984700932012-02-13T19:01:48.293-05:002012-02-13T19:01:48.293-05:00As noted on Bernstein, another thread on allnurses...As noted on Bernstein, another <a href="http://allnurses.com/operating-room-nursing/etiquette-in-the-673384.html" rel="nofollow">thread on allnurses</a> is covering similar territory. This time it concerns gossiping in the OR about sedated patients during surgery. Only a few nurses are defending it, but some do. One commentator even talked about a non nurse who said she couldn't wait to relate to friends the tale of the small genitalia of a hefty fireman on the table.<br />It is undeniable that these incidents, though never formally sanctioned, do occur. There is little formal medical or nursing instruction about this. One also has to wonder if this occurs with trained and licensed nurses, how much worse it could be with nursing assistants.Joel Sherman MDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15302609163683972129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2752793986869193186.post-10332670980890950982012-01-16T06:55:42.112-05:002012-01-16T06:55:42.112-05:00For myself and many people I know, the top reason ...For myself and many people I know, the top reason why we ignore health problems rather than get medical attention is because of the nurses and other assistants. If we had the opportunity to just talk to and strip for the doctor only, without the worthless nurses gawking at us and asking questions that only a doctor needs to know, we would be much more active with our medical care.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2752793986869193186.post-84996071396954526652012-01-10T20:23:55.914-05:002012-01-10T20:23:55.914-05:00Nekura
Successful medical malpractice ...Nekura<br /><br /> Successful medical malpractice suits are extremely<br />small, but yes overlooking an allergic reaction with<br />subsequent death would certainly be.<br /><br /> I can say with absolute certainty that many today<br />are entering medicine as a well paying job, not so much<br />from the physicians, but rather nursing and other allied<br />health programs. <br /><br /> Would it be fair to say that people are jaded before<br />they enter a program.<br /><br />PTAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2752793986869193186.post-89904925082001424202012-01-07T05:41:29.084-05:002012-01-07T05:41:29.084-05:00A nurse nearly killed my step dad by almost giving...A nurse nearly killed my step dad by almost giving him morphine which he is highly allergic to. If my mom wasn't in the room watching and asking questions.. well.. yeah..<br /><br /><br />As I understand, people enter the medical field either for money or genuinely to help people. But over the useless lawsuits (my GP is afraid to give Mardi Gras beads she caught to children out of fear of being sued) doctors, and nurses, seem to.. forget that they originally started this to help people. They become jaded.. and I think that's what leads to things like this.Nekurahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13086210133384287472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2752793986869193186.post-1417814596258887542011-12-29T22:23:32.940-05:002011-12-29T22:23:32.940-05:00Suzy
The thread on allnurses,nine thi...Suzy<br /><br /> The thread on allnurses,nine things nurses<br />don't want you to know is still there. The thread was<br />closed but can be accessed by doing a search.<br /><br /> I cannot comment on military nurses in that I<br />have never had to deal with them. <br /><br /><br />PTAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2752793986869193186.post-29635220588198661842011-12-27T15:06:50.831-05:002011-12-27T15:06:50.831-05:00Joel: I'm not saying that the rank difference...Joel: I'm not saying that the rank difference necessarily does have any influence on the treatment of the patient, at least from the nurse's point of view. But, come on, a Pfc as a patient being treated by a Leut. as a nurse -- there can be a rank/power dynamic at work there, at least from the patient's point of view. Of course, it can go in the reverse, too -- a Col. outranking the nurse that's treating him/her. I'm not saying it does happen frequently -- but there certainly is a conflict of interest at work.Doug Caprahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15722777627862939708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2752793986869193186.post-56530614552936449262011-12-27T10:05:12.567-05:002011-12-27T10:05:12.567-05:00The nurse has rank, the patient doesn't. How c...<i>The nurse has rank, the patient doesn't. How can that be considered a real caregiver-patient relationship? What's your take on that, PT. How about your Joel?</i><br /><br />Doug, I have no personal experience with that having never been in an army hospital. (VA hospitals are not the same thing.) I personally doubt that the rank difference makes any significant change in treatment for patients.Joel Sherman MDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15302609163683972129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2752793986869193186.post-80361843809580692462011-12-23T19:40:36.093-05:002011-12-23T19:40:36.093-05:00Thanks Suzy. Yes they did indeed delete the thread...Thanks Suzy. Yes they did indeed delete the thread or make it inaccessible. I kind of guessed that it would happen and I copied and have the entire thread saved. For the record, here is the full provocative comment:<br /><br /><i>1) Yeah, we look......and no, we're not above whispering to our co-workers, "Psst! Did you get a peek at the guy with the foot-long whatsis in 216?" There, I said it. We DO check out patients with unusual physical characteristics, mainly because we've seen so many naked bodies that one derriere looks like every other after a while. But not to worry: HIPAA is alive and well, and the secret of your "nonconformity" is safe with us.....at least till we get to the break room.</i><br /><br />The comment doesn't get any better after time. Once again you'll notice the motif that they believe it's quite alright to talk about patients amongst themselves, patient privacy doesn't apply to these nurses in the coffee room. Of course that's not true; gossiping about patients without a clinical need to know is a clear violation of medical ethics. Even upon rereading the comment, it's hard to believe that it was entirely tongue in cheek as the poster later claimed.Joel Sherman MDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15302609163683972129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2752793986869193186.post-49600807077740672242011-12-23T18:23:03.011-05:002011-12-23T18:23:03.011-05:00Two things:
1) Since posting my comment re: “9 Thi...Two things:<br />1) Since posting my comment re: “9 Things” I noticed that I can no longer access that thread. Is it the same for anyone else? Did you two hit a public nerve?<br /><br />2) Perhaps “genderless” is a misnomer. Or perhaps it depends on the gender’s point of view. To be ‘used’ as a sexually dispassionate or sexually benign bystander is in essence genderless. Care giving and nurturing are not the only known feminine traits: sexuality and sensuality are feminine as well. <br />But predominating such knowledge does not keep 95% of nurses female. It would, instead, cause society to question caregiver’s gender in a new and widespread way. We all know that it is not prepared to handle that.<br /><br />Males may be more aggressive, but males in medicine are not usually accused of attacking and raping female patients. It is usually more subtle and deceptive techniques that are used. All techniques that the passive female is capable of using as well. Perhaps we are just not looking for it, or caring if we see it.<br /><br />I just want society to be honest. Using women for these things is really no different than using men.<br /><br />SuzyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2752793986869193186.post-71767128735744423882011-12-16T13:02:43.164-05:002011-12-16T13:02:43.164-05:00PT -- You bring up some interesting points. I don&...PT -- You bring up some interesting points. I don't deny there is an unhealthy social culture in parts of American health care today, including nursing. I do think, for example, that many if not most nurses are reluctant to do or say anything when they see most violations happen, esp. no life-threatening violations. This happens mostly in hospitals and units with unhealthy cultures. It's out there -- nurse bullying, etc. And, as I've said, American medicine has become more about following the money now -- and that applies to nursing also.<br /> This still doesn't mean that most nurses treat their patients with indignity. I don't believe they do. There are givers and takers in this world, and I believe that most people who go into professions like nursing are the givers. But, I also think that too many nurses become disenchanted, jaded, indifferent, and even negative about their jobs because of how they are treated by management, and sometimes even by patients. <br /> I'm not defending those nurses that should never have gotten into the profession and should get out. But I am defending the vast majority of nurses to are trying to do the best job they can under difficult circumstances.Doug Caprahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15722777627862939708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2752793986869193186.post-49222005668903818682011-12-16T01:46:13.439-05:002011-12-16T01:46:13.439-05:00Doug
About 20 percent of all nursing ...Doug<br /><br /> About 20 percent of all nursing staff post on<br />allnurses. As far as what people post, if you can think it,<br />you'll verbalize it. There are literally hundreds of nursing<br />blogs with a variety of material representative of the<br />culture that is seen on allnurses.<br /> Not only do I read about the culture, I've <br />experienced it as well. Don't you think it disturbing that<br />a thread such as nine-things-nurses would have been<br />allowed to exist as long as it did. Don't you think that it's<br />members would have been so ashamed that such <br />subject matter presented for all to see. <br /> Even more disturbing is the number of kudos<br />the nurse received. Gives you a real indication of the<br />mindset these people have. Most of those in disagreement<br />were not nurse members, something nurse members find<br />annoying.<br /> One significant fact regarding nursing school trends<br />are that nurses entering the field are becoming younger<br />and only concerned about salary, not a calling. <br /> Another fact concerns the number of nurses being<br />reprimanded by state boards, at all time highs.<br /><br /><br />PTAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2752793986869193186.post-8267148309978898162011-12-15T23:18:32.022-05:002011-12-15T23:18:32.022-05:00PT -- I'm not convinced you can really conclud...PT -- I'm not convinced you can really conclude much for that. I don't think all the posts on allnurses necessarily represent "all nurses." You've got to be careful with blogs. Does Bernstein's blog represent "all" patients? Or all men? Or all women? I don't know. Most nurses I've talked with don't post on allnurses or even belong to it. Some have never heard of it. You can't conclude from some of those threads that "this" is how all nurses think. And even if some think that way, you can't conclude then that their behavior professionally matches what they say online. I think anonymous bloggers will often say things online that they would never dare say using their names, and express opinions suggesting behaviors that they would never really do.<br /> I don't take allnurses too seriously as actually representing all nurses. I think some of the threads do indicate certain trends, certain beliefs, certain tendencies. But they're indications only. If there are X members of allnurses.com, I'll be only a small percentage of them post on a regular basis. I'd bet that you'd find that perhaps less than 30 percent of the total members represent over 90 percent of the posts. Does that represent all nurses?<br /> Now, specifically, about the military nurse. I've always thought it quite odd that all military nurses are officers. Their relationship, then, with their patients who they outrank -- how can that be a powerless relationship? It's still an officer, enlisted man relationship. The nurse has rank, the patient doesn't. How can that be considered a real caregiver-patient relationship? What's your take on that, PT. How about your Joel?Doug Caprahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15722777627862939708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2752793986869193186.post-55668614686112188652011-12-15T22:11:04.851-05:002011-12-15T22:11:04.851-05:00Doug
Looking back and reviewing the...Doug<br /><br /><br /> Looking back and reviewing the thread on<br />allnurses, nine-things-nurses-don't-want-you-to-<br />know. The very first person who responded to the<br />thread with the response "spot on" happens to be<br />a female army nurse. As a whole, what does that<br />tell you. <br /><br />PTAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2752793986869193186.post-52131753609672656112011-12-15T11:19:08.014-05:002011-12-15T11:19:08.014-05:00PT -- I don't disagree with what you've ju...PT -- I don't disagree with what you've just said. Since this country was first created, it's Vets have always had to fight, not only for their country, but for basic benefits like health care. It's when you talk about "all" or even "most" nurses disregarding male modesty -- that's when we disagree. My experiences haven't led me to that conclusion. I write about this issue because, as I see it, it's a human rights issue, a human dignity issue. American medicine is becoming more and more a part of the corporate culture of American. It's becoming more and more about the money. Perhaps we need an Occupy Healthcare movement.<br /> When it comes to patient dignity and how they "should" be treated -- I think we agree, PT.Doug Caprahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15722777627862939708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2752793986869193186.post-84410278951651167302011-12-15T00:08:33.214-05:002011-12-15T00:08:33.214-05:00Doug
My views and perceptions are a re...Doug<br /><br /> My views and perceptions are a result of my<br />experiences as a patient and the many years I worked<br />in healthcare. My military induction experience falls in a category all it's own and is synonymous with an<br />ungrateful nation. <br /> I've worked with many disabled vets and you<br />cannot appreciate what some of these people have<br />been through regarding their healthcare. If you think<br />about it prison inmates get better care and are treated<br />better than most vets.<br /> Doug, if you disagree with me then why are you<br />such a prolific writer on these threads.<br /><br /><br />PTAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2752793986869193186.post-32226825413796923632011-12-14T21:29:31.900-05:002011-12-14T21:29:31.900-05:00If you read the article, I think you'll see an...If you read the article, I think you'll see another very important dynamic at work.<br /> 1. The doctor is outside his role of doctor. He has no real professional authority in this situation. He's "just" a spouse or family member.<br /> 2. The doctor is not even the patient. So he doesn't have the kind of authority a patient may claim over his or her body.<br /> 3. The doctor feels himself to be in a powerless position. He knows his wife finds the treatment humiliating but is reluctant to speak up. A man who usually has considerably authority, now feels he has no authority to say anything.<br /> 5. It's not clear whether the nurse knows the woman's husband is a doctor. If he does, he assumes that it makes no difference to him -- he's just going to do his job as usual. The doctor is experiencing how powerful hospital culture and policy can be. "This is just how we do things around here."<br /> What we see here is a medical professional -- one who works everyday in this kind of medical environment as an authority figure -- finally experiencing what it's like to be "the other," an "outsider" and powerless. It's obvious he feels the guilt and anger we've heard from patients who have gone through this kind of treatment, or from family members who have observed it happening to their loved ones.<br /> At the beginning of the article he writes in retrospect: "I should have never let it happen." At the end of the article, looking toward the future, he writes: "It will not happen again." <br /> Sounds like many of the patients writing on this and Bernstein's blog.Doug Caprahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15722777627862939708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2752793986869193186.post-87593710815586218292011-12-14T17:14:31.325-05:002011-12-14T17:14:31.325-05:00Suzy
That is an incredible article. What's...Suzy <br /> That is an incredible article. What's most incredible about it is the sudden enlightenment that this doctor gets. It's as if -- Wow! -- there is such a thing as patient modesty.<br /> The article is solid evidence, I believe, that demonstrates how clueless some providers are about this issue. This doctor didn't realize the significance of preserving patient modesty until the patient was his wife. Incredible.<br /> What's also interesting is that we see the old basic cliche's with the "rodeo" twist in this case --"I've done this a thousand times. You've got nothing I haven't seen before." <br /> What's your take on this, Joel? Yes, we should get this doctor to write an article for us or ask for permission to reprint this article.<br /> Incredible.Doug Caprahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15722777627862939708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2752793986869193186.post-53563111347828471972011-12-14T16:13:32.141-05:002011-12-14T16:13:32.141-05:00http://www.huffingtonpost.com/richard-c-senelick-m...http://www.huffingtonpost.com/richard-c-senelick-md/health-care-privacy_b_1140930.html<br /><br />Here is an interesting article from a male M.D. who didn't understand the degree of patient humiliation until his own wife had an encounter with a male nurse. <br />I wonder if he would be interested in a guest post here? It seems the experience was a true eye-opener for him..........Suzy Furno-Mariclehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09656508287697541479noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2752793986869193186.post-14582350094359380782011-12-13T15:10:27.473-05:002011-12-13T15:10:27.473-05:00I don't agree with you, PT, although I do admi...I don't agree with you, PT, although I do admit that there are too many nurses who express what I consider to be an unprofessional attitude on allnurses. But I do admit that, although I think your opinion is an extreme and minority opinion, I do believe a minority but significant number of men feel that way. That's what nurses need to understand. Your view of nurses is one they need to acknowledge and deal with. And your view in turn influences other patients. Correct me if I'm wrong, PT, but I gather much of your view is not just based upon what you have seen over the years working in healthcare, but also based upon your negative experience during your military induction.Doug Caprahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15722777627862939708noreply@blogger.com